Fear Trap: Escape The Triggers That Keep You Stuck

[00:00:00] the brain can change, that we can develop new pathways, new ways of communicating new ways of responding. What we also realized, and we’ve known this is that very primitive parts of our brain is our amygdala area, which is our anxiety center and our in its designed to keep us safe.

Often triggers uncomfortable emotions based on how we think about things because the amygdala can’t see reality. So it takes us cues from how we think. And if we’re worried about something, it doesn’t know if we’re worried about being late for work, failing a test, getting a conflict, or there’s a tiger chasing us.

So the more that happens, you know, the more we worry about something, the more anxiety and uncomfortable we feel. And the more likely we are to operate on our emotional brain, another piece is, you know, I’ll have people saying, I just can’t stop worrying. How do I stop worrying? Well, I think one thing people need to recognize is our dopamine receptors and our brain are pleasure.

[00:01:00] Centers are activated when we worry doesn’t mean, it feels good to worry. Doesn’t mean it feels good at all to worry. And we believe it’s an old adaptive response because then it keeps us focused on worry. So between our primitive brain, our anxiety brain, that wants to keep us safe. So it’s gonna trigger that body to feel uncomfortable emotions if the smart brain’s worrying, plus those dopamine, those pleasure centers, that’s how people can often get stuck

Welcome to onward. Live a live stream, focused on encouraging you to create a life you love living. Now let’s go beyond success to significance, being clear on our why is crucial. It requires doing the inner work, finding ourselves, getting to know ourselves, embracing our inner child, shedding social conditioning, and letting go of perfect.

We know obstacles make us stronger. [00:02:00] We can dream big and take action. Believe you can. And you’re halfway there. I invite you to tune in every week and engage with me and my inspiring guests. Invite your friends. Let’s make time for what matters most in our lives. Let’s move on together.

Hello for people that are watching tonight and to the people that listen to this as a podcast, when I publish it later as a podcast if you’re watching, let me know, you can hear me. Sometimes I’ve had mic issues, but I think we’re good today. I was just talking with Dr. Nancy Stella earlier before we came live and she just had a bad storm.

We had a terrible storm, too. The power went out and I thought, oh, at least it’s not gonna happen. During the podcast, I think the storm is, is gone, but I’m so excited to bring. My guest on tonight, Dr. Nancy Stella has been a leading psych clinical psychologist in the Cincinnati area for over 20 years.

And after a shattering divorce, [00:03:00] Dr. Stella found traditional therapeutic approaches wanting. So what did she do? She went out and figured it out on her own. She developed the courageous brain process, which is an innovative science based method of therapy. And it’s rooted in the most up to date neuroscience and her approach has allowed countless clients to experience their own transformations from the inside out, by bypassing the shortcomings of traditional talk therapy to REPA the way their brain’s process fear.

And she also wrote a book about it. So I’m really excited to bring Nancy Stella on. And hi, Nancy. Hi Emily. Thank you for having me on. Oh, awesome. I guess I could have had a doctor in front of your name and it probably should say, oh, that’s fine. Say D squared because you’ve got two doctorates. Yes. Wow.

yeah. Well that was a moment of insanity. So one in [00:04:00] social psychology and one in clinical psychology. That’s amazing. Yeah. So welcome to the show tonight. Thank you. I’m glad to be. Yeah. I can’t tell if people, you know, tonight’s been a weird, it’s been interesting in the summer. I think people viewing these lives in the summer has gone down a little bit.

Mm-hmm then people are listening to the audio version of the podcast when I publish it. So we never know if people are gonna be here tonight or not, but if you are here watching, feel free to ask me and my guest, Nancy, some questions and feel free to you know, just let us know where you’re tuning in from.

So I’d love to let us know that you’re here. I can see one person at least is watching and there could be more. So I’m interested in talking to you about fear and maybe you could tell us a little bit about your story. Wait, someone posted. So I wanna make sure they can hear so, hi, Gabe. Thanks for joining.

I’d like to hear your story and then I’d also like to hear. What [00:05:00] your definition of fear is and how do we know if it’s fear or like something else that’s driving us. And how do we know if we’re I’m I know I’m asking a ton of questions, but like, how do we know if we’re really stuck in it’s fear, if it’s just the way it is.

Okay. Good questions. Tough questions. So good questions. Let me start with my story because that’s how the whole concept kind of evolved from. I had been a practicing psychologist for a number of years, and I ended up going through a very difficult divorce, a divorce. I did not want a divorce I did not expect.

And what I found was that I was reacting in a way that was not healthy for me. It certainly was not a way to win my husband back, but I couldn’t figure out why I was reacting the way that I was. And I was reacting. Crying, needy clingy. And I knew that wouldn’t win him back. So I was trying to figure out what’s going on.

That’s making me react this way. And what I realized is that I was being thrown back [00:06:00] to a previous event in my life that was traumatic for me. And that was, my father had died when I was shortly before I turned five. And at that time, my family somewhat fell apart. My family were Italian immigrants. My mother ended up in and outta psychiatric hospitals at the time.

And I was living with a grandmother who didn’t speak English well, and I became just a little neurotic mess. At five years old, I became clingy, needy whiny, and that’s appropriate for a five year old. Yes, but it wasn’t appropriate for me when I was in my forties, but I couldn’t stop it. And I said, what in the world is kind of happening to me?

And why am I having difficulty kind of stopping this reaction? And what I realized was that in the process of being thrown back. , this is somewhat of a tricky concept. Is that chronologically we one age. So I was an adult woman, but I was taken back to being five when that trauma first occurred and what I was doing, I was problem solving like a five year old mm-hmm [00:07:00] and realized what, you know, I was reacting like I was being abandoned.

I didn’t think I would be able, I felt like a little girl. I was afraid I wouldn’t survive. Even though I was successful financially and competent personally, I felt like this. I felt like I was five years old. I remember sitting with my kids and thinking, oh, we’ve got three kids here. Me and my two daughters.

So I thought some something’s going on. I went to therapy and I, you know, and I got some relief, but there was no sustainable change. And I realized that happened with my clients too. Although my clients may have felt better. It seems like there wasn’t permanent change. I kind of find to figure out what’s happening here.

So let me ask you a question. Okay. Why did you go to therapy? Because you’re a therapist because I’m a human too. And we can’t, you know, it’s like, you know, they say physicians can’t heal themselves. Psychologists can’t heal themselves either, but I figured out how to, okay. Okay. So I went to therapy. It really [00:08:00] wasn’t successful in terms of any kinda long term change.

It didn’t change my fears. what I realized was looking in the neuroscience literature is that, you know, we have, and I’m, I won’t get all science wonky on you. Mm-hmm we have neuro pathways in our brains, and those are simply like our communication networks. It’s how our brain kind of talks to ourself and talks to itself.

And I realized that when a trauma occurs or it doesn’t even have to be a trauma can just be events that kind of pile up for people that they develop habitual ways of responding. And it almost be, it, it becomes automatic. And if it’s an unhealthy way of responding, it can lay dormant for years. Like it did for me until it was triggered.

So I realized I had to begin changing. I had basically learned how, in some ways to kind of reparent myself, but learn how to bring myself into adulthood. And that’s how this model developed. And you had asked the [00:09:00] question, fear, how do we know it’s fear? How do we know it’s not something else? Fear is the root of our issue.

Fear is the cause of anxiety. Fear is the cause of depression. So when people think about it, really, they’re afraid of what’s going to happen, you know, got it. If I’m anxious, I’m afraid of the unknown. I’m afraid of uncertainty now. So let me with depression, let, so Gabe says trauma that deeply ingrained can still surface.

Yes, Gabe, it can. And that’s amazing and scaring at the same time. Can I mind if I share an example of how I witnessed it to you? No, please. Absolutely. I’ve witnessed it in myself, but I’ll, I’ll just share this example. Like I got upset with my dad over something and we got into a little disagreement and later on we resolved it.

But later on, he. Emailed me and said that he doesn’t like it when people don’t get along, he gets scared, you [00:10:00] know, it reminds him of his childhood. So I, I went and talked to him about that. And what he said was he remembers his dad and his uncle arguing and how he felt. And I kind of was trying to explain to him he’s 88, but that in that moment I was really talking to, I don’t know, eight or nine year old, Joe, my dad, yes.

Who’s eight or nine, not 88 year old Joe. It was the eight or nine year old. Right, right. That that’s a great example. Yes mm-hmm . And even, you know, and that may not have been a traumatic event for him, but it’s the kind of event that gets piled one on top of the other. And it, it informs those pathways.

It’s much like let’s say I’m in a meadow and I wanna walk from point a to point B the first time I walked that path, you can hardly tell I walked it. But the more I do it, the more that path becomes pronounced. That’s what happens in our brain and what trauma happens. It’s more like a [00:11:00] truck just driving through and it forms a path right away.

So, and sometimes back and forth for some people have experienced significant trauma. So it’s, you know, and what happens is when we get thrown back to an earlier age, we problem solve from that developmental perspective. So I was problem solving like a five year old and it wasn’t working. Your father was problem solving like an eight or nine year old, which may have been just to withdraw or freeze.

Yeah. And it doesn’t work. Right. Yeah. To say, please just please stop it. Cuz I feel uncomfortable. Right. So, so how do you heal that five year old Nancy or that eight or nine year old? I call my dad, Joe he’s wrote my real dad. How do you heal that? And you have to kind of integrate that person back into you, right?

Yes. Yes. And you know, some wounds and some pro you know, some wounds. Get completely healed. But what that you can do is learn to recognize them and that when you’re poked or when you’re stirred, being able to respond appropriately [00:12:00] more adult, like when I work with clients and when I did this with myself, the first thing I did was tell my story, you know, and I asked clients to tell their story, our memory, isn’t always the best.

That doesn’t matter. What’s important is with how the person perceives it and what their story is. And when they tell their story, I look for and begin helping them identify what their triggers are and people know their triggered on several different levels. One way people know they’re triggered is when their reaction is outta proportion to the event.

Mm-hmm . So if you react and it’s bigger than what’s happening, what’s going on is that that’s that old stuff, something else is coming. or if, you know, I start thinking kind of all or none or that black or white, or, you know, there’s several different kinds of triggers, but typically there’s an emotional response and your thinking becomes [00:13:00] very concrete and it can actually be distorted mm-hmm okay.

So we begin identifying what the triggers are and then when somebody is triggered, how do they begin self sabotaging mm-hmm so like in your father’s place, if he doesn’t like conflict, you know, just telling somebody to stop is not, it doesn’t work. Or in my case, becoming clingy, needy and whiny was self sabotaging.

So it’s beginning to recognize when we begin self sabotaging or avoiding conflict and maybe not be able to have a, a healthy conflict. Oh, AB yes, absolutely. I’ve seen my parents argue that’s not healthy. No, it’s not. No, because we have disagreements with people. So it doesn’t mean you’re gonna have a knockdown drag out fight, or you have to scream and yell at each other.

Mm-hmm , but where there’s conflict. And most people that I encounter are conflict avoidant. There’s a few people that are okay with conflict, but most people are conflict avoidant because it makes them feel just [00:14:00] incredibly uncomfortable and that there’s going to be a rupture in the relationship mm-hmm

And then if it’s ruptured, then you have to deal with it. What I mean, so what did it, did it take therapy for you to remember that five year old Nancy? Or did, I mean, how do, how does somebody, who’s not a therapist figure this out? Well, I just do describe it in my book. But the first part really is I’m gonna go back.

You need to really tell your story, tell it to yourself, write it down, go through your stories. Look for a look for points in your life, where there may have been some type of I’m gonna use the word rupture again, some type of rupture or some type of some kind of either repeated events or rupture that may have triggered kind of unhealthy reaction.

In other words, it’s looking for, where did I get stuck? You know, where am I. Where are you stuck in? Maybe even also [00:15:00] some, like what are some repeating patterns in my life? Abso yeah. Repeating dysfunctional repeating patterns. Yeah, absolutely. And it’s looking at, what’s not working for you, you know, really you, most of us wanna have a happy life.

Right. And it’s looking, what’s not working and then telling your story and kind of figuring out, is there anything from my past that would make this difficult to work through my current life? Mm-hmm . Yep, definitely. And, and when I meet with clients, I spend time with them getting to know them and listening to what they tell me, listening to what patterns they begin repeating.

You know, we start from wherever they feel comfortable starting. And then if we have to go back, we go back and, and taking them through, you know, where have they had a problem. Or where have they had repeated problems? You know, why can’t I make friends? Why am I shy? Why am I afraid, you know, to drive on the highway?

[00:16:00] Why am I, and you fill in the blank and of sense, one place to start is middle school. I’ve had some clients that are like, you know, middle school I got picked on, you know, so I want people to like me and that kind of can, you know, continue in life. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I mean, how many of us have gone to an event where all of a sudden, you know, worried about how I look, I worry if people are gonna talk to me and I feel like I’m like 13 again, you know, and what if you feel like you’re 13, you’re going to problem solve like 13 year olds may not stomp your feet and slam doors.

But you’ll probably saw from that developmental perspective and it just doesn’t work when you’re in adulthood. And so we look for those patterns where people may just continue to repeat, you know, negative ways of responding or they’re operating just on emotions. When we get upset, this is not literal, but it’s almost like our emotional mind gets disconnected from our, you know our logical and rational mind.[00:17:00] 

And the more upset we are, the more we operate on emotions. So when, when I know that we’ve come a long way in neuroscience, when did all this kind of start? I mean, and what has something like grown exponentially over the past several years with what we know about the brain. . Yeah, absolutely. I remember when I was first in graduate school, many years ago, we used to think once the brain was formed, it was formed mm-hmm period.

You know, that was, it was, it was like concrete. We began learning that it wasn’t that, that the brain can change, that we can develop new pathways, new ways of communicating new ways of responding. What we also realized, and we’ve known this is that very primitive parts of our brain is our amygdala area, which is our anxiety center and our in its designed to keep us safe.

Often triggers uncomfortable emotions based on how we think about things because the amygdala can’t see reality. So it takes us [00:18:00] cues from how we think. And if we’re worried about something, it doesn’t know if we’re worried about being late for work, failing a test, getting a conflict, or there’s a tiger chasing us.

So the more that happens, you know, the more we worry about something, the more anxiety and uncomfortable we feel. And the more likely we are to operate on our emotional brain, another piece is, you know, I’ll have people saying, I just can’t stop worrying. How do I stop worrying? Well, I think one thing people need to recognize is our dopamine receptors and our brain are pleasure.

Centers are activated when we worry doesn’t mean, it feels good to worry. Doesn’t mean it feels good at all to worry. And we believe it’s an old adaptive response because then it keeps us focused on worry. So between our primitive brain, our anxiety brain, that wants to keep us safe. So it’s gonna trigger that body to feel uncomfortable emotions if the smart brain’s worrying, plus those dopamine, those pleasure centers, that’s how people can often get stuck.[00:19:00] 

Do you think that if, and I hear thunder, hopefully we’re gonna be okay here, but do you think that. as we start to learn and create these new neural pathways in our brain. And I know people have been talking about, we still have that reptilian brain that’s fight or flight and all that you think we’re going to evolve and not have that anymore?

Like, is our brain gonna evolve? I would like to say, yes, it’s certainly not gonna happen in any of our lifetime. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, a a again, I’d like to say yes. You know, those are those reptil and brain. It’s been a long for a long ti a long time, and it really is designed to keep us safe. It’s just in today’s world.

We don’t always need it activated as much as it gets activated. So here’s a question. I don’t know if this has to do with fear or not. I think it does, but I can’t trace it back to something that I can, that I can remember. But when I went to the Naval [00:20:00] academy, in order to graduate, we had to jump off the 10 meter diving tower.

now, most people they’ve started moving that to your freshman year. So they know right away. If someone can jump or not. I think we did it my junior year. I wanna say. And I missed when the class did it because I had had knee surgery. So it might have even been my senior year. Yeah. Or could, whatever year was I missed doing, doing it with my class.

So the difference about doing it with your class is there’s a long line of people behind you and they’re waiting for you to jump. So I would like to think that if I was doing it with my class, the peer pressure would’ve gotten me to jump, but I didn’t. I had to go up there by myself to jump and imagine that, you know, you’re in this, in the pool, but see, I can see all the way down to the bottom of the pool and I can see the roof right there.

Mm-hmm so I was terrified. It took me several weeks to jump. mm-hmm my [00:21:00] people would play that song by van hail and jump and people tell you to jump. Okay. But that’s not helping my frigging brain to make me jump. So I don’t know what it was, but one day I just jumped and then I went back and jumped eight times in a row.

Ah, good for you. But I’m wondering like, is fear of Heights or fear or claustrophobia? Is that something that just is like you inherit? Or is that something that is part of how we could change it with our brain? Like what you’re talking about? Yeah. I, you know, I do treat anxiety disorders and the, the common, the, and phobias, you know, the common thing that seems to run through some of the phobias, like fear of Heights is it’s again, I’m gonna go back to that primitive brain.

It’s not natural to be 10 meters high. Yeah. and want to jump off, you know, it’s not natural to be in an airplane. It’s [00:22:00] not natural to be on a highway on a bridge. It’s not things that just, you know, that just, you know, if you, if you look back to CA person, times just isn’t natural. And so we do believe that anxiety disorders do have a genetic component.

So what we end up seeing is a range for people. You know, there’s some people who are risk takers, that physical adventure, and they get highs off that it doesn’t mean that they’re not afraid. Yeah. It’s that they’re willing to face it. Mm-hmm . And typically once you face something, what happens is your brain goes, eh, it’s not so bad.

Hence I jumped eight times in a row one day. Yes. Yes. And that helps that. And then the brain goes, oh, okay. So, you know, she’s not dying, so it’s okay for her to keep jumping. Now, if you waited. Until the fear was, if, you know, if you didn’t jump again, what ha your brain doesn’t quite completely say, oh, she survived that time.[00:23:00] 

Could she survived another time? Yeah. I don’t know that I could go back and do it again, but yes, I I’m just thinking like maybe they could have done something to help us jump instead of just played, go jump and told us to jump. Cause it’s more than that, they, they could have, they, they really it’s it’s and typically when we work with people who have those kinds of fears, we develop a hierarchy.

What’s, you know, let’s start from the bottom where it’s, you know, let’s take, maybe just have you jump, you know, three meters. We did that. Someone even tried to push me off the seven meter. Yeah, I did. Yeah. But I see what you’re saying. Yeah. But start lower. And then once your body gets used to that and your brain gets used to that, you just kind of inch up, you know, it’s like somebody who has a fear of driving, we’re not, and let’s say, we’re not gonna put them on, you know, 80 mile per hour highway.

Yeah. To start driving, we start small. Yeah. And once they get, when, you know, once they’re comfortable, then we ratchet it up. So tell us some stories of, of, if you can, of like some [00:24:00] aha moments that some of your clients had or how you’ve helped some of your clients. I don’t know if you can or not. Yeah.

Well, I will, I’ll give you kind of a composite. Yeah. But I think this one, this composite is pretty true anyway, for lots of people. There are people who have, who, particularly, if they grew up with, let’s say a non nurturing father. You know, somebody who was kind of, you know, you think a very military cut and dry, not a lot of praise may have been criticism, you know, not much emotional involvement in someone’s life.

What can happen is then a male can grow up or a female can grow up and really have a strong sense when they have children of obligation, they wanna be different than their parent. So what they may do then is swing the opposite way. Mm-hmm and just, and I don’t wanna say enable their children. But don’t let their children see any of their vulnerabilities.

And then as they get older, having shame around, if they have to ask their children for [00:25:00] help and their children, aren’t used to asking for help. I’m not sure if that example makes sense at all. No, it does. It does, but yeah. And so that can often happen for people and then it’s helping them say, all right, how do we, how do we get more balance in life?

So, you know, one, you, you don’t ask your children for help. You know, you, you’re going into surgery and you’re going with a friend instead of your ch you know, asking one of your, you know, 45 year old children to take you, you know, helping them realize that they’re also robbing their child of their opportunity to help, you know, and they’re making the decision for their child.

Mm-hmm yeah, that’s a good example. So tell us a little bit about your book. I’m gonna put the title of it up here again. Okay. The go ahead. What the book goes through. It’s, it’s a, it’s a self health book. It’s, you know, I designed it using the process that I did for myself. And what I did was I picked kind of some of the most common fears that people have and talk, I give a, I give, [00:26:00] you know, a a composite example of a client at the beginning and kind of what they struggle with and then how we kind of work through that process with them to help them come with some resolution.

Yeah. The book starts with very primitive, like abandonment moves up to rejection and then moves to more sophisticated things like conflict avoidance mm-hmm like fear of the unknown. So it starts with very basic kind of emotions and then covers some of the more complicated or more sophisticated issues we may struggle with.

It. The book is pretty self descriptive. It involves not only the stories and how to look at exam, you know, how to identify self sabotage, how to identify your triggers and how to begin to develop that courageous brain. So you, you know, how can you tolerate your vulnerability and recognize that when you face your vulnerability, your strengths emerges and it also helps kind of validate some of what you [00:27:00] feel.

And I, and I’ll give you an example and I’m allowed to say this because this is from a fellow psychologist of mine. Okay. To she had, when she was growing up, her parents were from England and she was very proud of that. And when she was in elementary school, she would, you know, continue, she’d mentioned that a lot.

And then one day a good friend of hers turned to her and said something to the effect of, would you just, we know your parents are from England. Would you just stop talking about that? and boy that cutter to her core, because that was something, you know, when she was in third grade, she was really proud of.

Yeah. And it helped make her feel different, you know, kind of unique. So she ended up then being very self amazingly through the rest of her life was very self-conscious about mentioning focusing on herself or mentioning something that would make her feel different or be looked at as being different.

So we went through this process and now it [00:28:00] helps her take pride in who she is. Doesn’t mean she brags about her parents being from England anymore, but she is able to kind of work through it, embrace what she does. Well, validate herself for that and kind of distance herself from those old fears. Yeah.

That’s a really good example. Probably should get the book for my daughter cuz I’m thinking, you know, she grew up she’s 26. When she was younger, four and a half, our, her parents SEP, you know, I got divorced from her dad. Then we had the sniper. Do you remember the sniper in DC? Oh yes. And so she, her class wasn’t we lived in Southern, Maryland, but still she wasn’t able to go outside for recess.

Yes. Cause everyone was looking for a white truck with a ladder or something. I don’t know. Then nine 11 happened. Yeah. You know, so all these things. And then, and she allows me to say this then at 15 and a half, [00:29:00] she was raped. So all these things have contributed clearly to fear in her, in her she’s come a, a really long way.

I’m so proud of her and how she’s worked through it. But it doesn’t have to be somebody being mean to you. Like probably this kid that was at the parade that two year old who’s both of his parents. Yes. Yes. . Yeah. I mean that’s, how do you, how do you deal with, I mean, what can, what could somebody do?

Like if, if they see a young child going through some kind of traumatic event like that, I mean, how can you help him deal with it now? Right. I mean, that’s, you know, we’re talking about a two year old who lost both parents, so he’s naturally going to suffer that loss, that grief and not understand, he’s not going to understand the concept of death, but he’s certainly going to understand that his, you know, eventually his parents aren’t coming back.

Yeah. And, you know, we know that memories, it’s hard [00:30:00] really before the age of four to have memories, how clear memories, however our body holds them. Mm-hmm . It doesn’t mean that he won’t be triggered later on. And my guess is people will tell him this story and in the process of telling this story, it’s going to become part of who he is.

So yeah, I’m gonna go back to kind of the case of, with your daughter and like the DC sniper or nine 11, you know, people were scared. I remember that. I remember being in Maryland when this, when that snip, when the sniper was going on and you know, it was kind of eerie yeah. To, you know, go out because you, you didn’t, you wouldn’t know who was around the corner.

You know, part of it is to begin recognizing that, especially as children, we begin to incorporate these things into our belief system. Mm-hmm that the world. Safe. I’m not safe, you know, I’m not safe. So how do I keep myself safe? And for some people it’s so well, I’ll just stay in the house and it won’t go out again.

Mm-hmm and that’s not a [00:31:00] healthy way of functioning. So it’s helping somebody kind of recognize this trauma, accept the trauma. And like for your daughter, you know, her trauma happened. It wasn’t like walking a path. It was that truck going through multiple times, right. Is, is learning. How do I, how do I understand where I was when these traumas happen and be able to, how do I then kind of reframe it for myself and look at it at more from an adult developmentally appropriate perspective while keeping in mind, am I repeating or having any negative behaviors as a result of this trauma?

Yeah. You know, and then, okay. So what am I doing that is robbing me of living my life because of. Happened in the past. Yeah. Because I’m afraid of what may happen in the future. And so that’s how we begin the process of, of facing fears. And particularly with trauma, it’s so important for a person to be able [00:32:00] to tell their story, to tell their story.

My daughter is also a therapist and she works with children. Who’ve had significant trauma and oftentimes they tell their story and it’s not exact because you know, somebody could be a superhero in the story. Right. But helping turn people into helping, how can you feel? Even if it’s an illusion more in control.

Yeah. yeah. Yeah. I mean, one other thing that comes to mind, I didn’t really think of it in this context. Is when my daughter’s dad passed away in December, 2019, and from around this time, that year, 19 20, 19 until December, she took care of him and he was really sick with cancer. Like he couldn’t he’s paralyzed in both arms.

It was just so her, she, I think I helped her this weekend, cuz she’s thinking about tho remembering him and feeling bad about how sick he was. And, and she didn’t like seeing [00:33:00] him die, just feeling so sick and in pain and he never complained. And, and I, and I tried to help her think of it from another perspective like Anna, if you passed away after five months of being.

how would you want people to remember you mm-hmm would you want people to remember you for those last five months or for how you lived your life? And then I started listing all the ways that she mm-hmm is such an awesome daughter with a big heart and all the things. So, you know, maybe her, you said like you, the part of your brain that kind of gets excited about worry, it gets stimulated.

Right. And so you keep focusing on that. Yes. So I’m thinking that what you said there would help her as well. Yes. And I, and I think, you know, what I find is when people have an awareness, just, you know, just some awareness of how the brain works. Yeah. It demystifies it. So if I can’t stop worrying, okay. How do I begin [00:34:00] breaking this cycle?

And there’s some really kind of certain techniques that we use. One, I call and I is like the worry tax and. And if people do this, it works. It’s just hard to get people, to encourage them to do this. And the worry tax is you can worry all you want, but do it. Let’s say sitting on a hardwood floor with one arm up and one leg kind of up, no worry, worry your hard away.

And what happens is your brain goes, Ugh, that doesn’t feel so good. Oh, I love that. Maybe I don’t, maybe I don’t really wanna worry as much as you know, I think I do. And it, then it’s begin differentiating between what’s worry and what’s problem solving. What’s, you know, if you’re concerned and you’re doing problem solving, that’s one thing.

But when it flips over into worry, it’s just destructive for us. It’s not problem solving. And it just, I really like that anxious us. And then you’ve got that you know, so mindfulness and meditation can help too. How is that? Yeah, [00:35:00] well, mindfulness meditation is a. Like at learning kind of mind control, because really that’s what it teaches us.

It teaches us how to be present and how to recognize that just because we think something or just because we feel something doesn’t mean it’s true. Mm-hmm . And so it helps us be in the present and be able to focus on how can I not necessarily detach from what I’m thinking, but just let, I don’t need to join that parade in my mind.

Yeah. You know, and when I realize I’m doing it, it’s like, okay, how do I shift out of it? Right. And beginning that process and accepting that your brain wants you to worry, because it thinks it’s doing you a favor by keeping you safe by whatever the smart brain is worrying about. And what we find is people that practice mindfulness meditation.

There’s some studies that have been done out of Massachusetts general and John and Harvard some joint research where they found that people do do [00:36:00] this for 12 weeks. There’s actually changes noted in their brain on bed scans. Now it’s important to practice techniques before you need them, because if you wait until you need them, you’re likely to, it’s not going to work because that brain will fight you because it’s going to say, you want to relax when you’re worried about being up in the air in a plane, you have gotta be kidding me.

So the more it’s the important, the more you practice these when you don’t need them, the easier they are to use when you need. And if you, some people can describe beautifully what to do, but they don’t practice. And then I say, well, that’s like learning how to swim by reading a book. You may be able to describe everything perfectly, but does it mean if you ended up in the deep end of the pool, you’d be able to get to the edge?

No, you’d panic. Now let’s say you ended up in the deep end of the pool after reading that book, but also practicing you may still panic, but then all of a sudden you’ll go, oh, I know how to swim. Right. [00:37:00] And you get to the side. Yeah. It takes it’s hard work. You know, it’s, it sounds simple on paper, but it takes practice and work.

Yeah. But it does, it works. It’s like strengthening the muscles in your mind, in your brain, I guess. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I had a past guest who talked about how our brain just thinks of these things and we just like rubber stamp it and say, well, that must be true. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. You know, I, yes.

Mindfulness teaches you to say, wait a. that’s a lie. That’s about true. Yes. But we tend to believe what we think and feel. And, and I’ll give you an example. Let’s say you have a, a five or six year old child who thinks there’s a monster under their bed. They’re really scared. Their feelings are real. They are feeling fear, but their thoughts aren’t telling them the truth.

Cuz there is no monster under the bed as adults though. We also have monsters under the bed. it? [00:38:00] Just to recognize them. yeah, that’s true. And I think to when we sometimes point to outside circumstances is causing these issues in our lives. I’ve said this before on the podcast, one of my coaches said when you point a finger at somebody or a situation or a circumstance, you got three pointing back at you.

So let’s look at ourselves like what is it in me? That, you know, my thoughts and my that are contributing to my feelings and then my action or my inaction, that’s leading to these results. It, we, we, it’s easier to point at something outside of us than it is to look at us. Absolutely. And the others, when we look outside of ourselves or I’m sorry, we blame others or we’re angry at others, we actually become victims.

I mean, anger is a victim’s emotion. Mm-hmm , even though it’s an energizing emotion and a directable emotion, we start believing something has to change. That’s outside of our control. So the importance [00:39:00] is when you feel that anger, it’s beginning to look at what is the emotion, one fueling that anger. And where is that coming from?

Well, most people can’t name their emotions. I know when I retired one of the reasons is I, I wanted to, like, I knew I wasn’t feeling my emotions. I couldn’t name ’em happy and sad. And I there’s a book called permission to feel or helping us, you know, even name our emotions. And I started going to meeting with coaches and counselors and stuff, and they’d be like, well, what do you feel about that?

I’m like, I don’t know. Mm-hmm I know what I think. Right. I don’t know what I feel. Where do I feel it in my body? Why does that matter? But it’s so important. Can you explain, like, why is it important to know what you’re feeling and then where you’re feeling it in your body? Well, our thoughts always don’t tell us the truth so we can have a perception or put a story around something, but it doesn’t mean that that is necessarily the truth.

And we know our [00:40:00] body holds memories. We know that, you know, I mean, a an extreme example or, or more classic examples, people who have been abused physically, sexually you know, they can be very intolerant of touch because their body holds the memories of what had happened to them in the past, even if they don’t remember.

So even you think of this little toddler that both of his parents died, even, you know, he was under his father. There may be that pressure on his body may be a trigger as he goes into adulthood. And he might not know why. So part of it is to listen to what your body is telling you, where do you feel tension?

Where do you feel discomfort and listen, and even asking what does that part of the body need? You know, what is it reacting to? What does it need? You know, so that you can appropriately address it. That’s that’s a [00:41:00] really good point. If you’re watching this and you have some questions, feel free to put them in the chat.

So I read this book recently called living untethered okay. By Michael singer or whatever, but he was talking about the importance of how feel thoughts of, of guest feelings can, if we don’t feel them, if we just ignore it, they can kind of get stuck in our body as stuck energy. Mm-hmm . And that’s what you’re talking about with the fear when you feel stuck, right?

Yes. And then it can start creating disease in our body. Right. Right. It’s important to right. Name the feelings, feel them, but not be like, let them control your life or be overtaken by ’em. Right, right. It’s also remembering it’s just a feeling. It’s you wanna acknowledge it? You don’t wanna ignore it, but it’s also just a feeling.

And if we can acknowledge our feelings, they don’t hurt us. We can survive what we feel. You know, [00:42:00] most people are afraid of uncomfortable emotions. They want to, you know, that flight fight or freeze response, they wanna get away or fight it. But most of us, when we recognize it’s just a feeling I can deal with this, whether the feeling is anxiety, fear of, you know, I’m afraid of the dark or whatever, we can survive it.

And, you know, again, our bodies, you know, our bodies, our bodies hold those things. We know that, you know, we’re seeing, you know, so many people have autoimmune disorders. Mm-hmm and that, you know, I just kind of how, as they get older, how just that stress seems to wear on them. We may not be able to make a direct link yet.

but we see correlations. Yeah. Yeah. There was something I was thinking when you were saying that and now it skipped my mind. But so, okay. The trigger warnings, how do we, you, you had said, I read on your website that one of your trigger warnings was the smell [00:43:00] of your former husband’s cologne when you were going through the divorce, right?

Yes. Yes. Was somebody else wearing it and you smelled it or something and you noticed yes. Yes. Yes. I, I, yes. What happened was, you know, I had a couple of different triggers and one of them was simply just smelling his cologne. And what that did was that just came a rush of emotions, came forth, you know, sense of sad, you know, things that I had not worked through a sense of sadness, a sense of grief, a sense of loss a sense of.

Can I survive this? Can I get through this? You know, again, it kind of put me back to being five mm-hmm and I felt lost. Yeah. And so I had to recognize what are the things in my life that trigger me, you know? Yeah. And we know that smell is one of the strongest triggers. And that’s why, oftentimes when people say you’re selling a house, make sure, you know, you have scent of fresh baked cookies or, or so along that line because smells have meaning to us.

Yep. Yep. They do. And [00:44:00] so I stayed really busy to not feel my feelings, but I didn’t realize that’s what I was doing. So sometimes you can do things like unconsciously mm-hmm to when you get a trigger. To not even notice it. Right, right. Oh yes, yes. Could be like scrolling through social media every night, instead of really like dealing with what you’re feeling or binge watching on Netflix.

Or for me, it was just staying busy. I, I had, I didn’t have time to feel. Right, right. It’s avoid that’s, you know, that’s kind of classic avoidance. That’s, you know, would be almost fleeing from your feelings. So, you know, some, some of what we, what we do in that case is that’s why mindfulness meditation is important because it allows you just to be mindful of what you feel and learn not to be afraid of it.

Yes. You know, may not feel good and you may not like it, but learning not to be afraid of it. And that you can, and that’s when the strength starts emerging when you realize, okay, I can, it doesn’t may not [00:45:00] like it, but I can deal with it. Right. And, and I’ll give you another example. I’ve had cancer twice.

oh, wow. My prognosis, my, well, my prognosis is good. It was two different kinds of breast cancer. My, I blame it on swimming in lake Erie as a child, but you know, both my prognosis is good. And I remember when I was first diagnosed with the first one, I said, why me? And then all of a sudden it occurred to me, well, why not me?

I’m not special. I’m not unique. Cancer happens to, you know, hundreds of thousands, millions of people. And when I made that shift, you know, my emotions changed along with that because I no longer felt like a victim. Yeah. I felt like I was being, it was, you know, picked on. It’s like, okay, you’re thinking, yeah.

You’re thinking like, why me? Da, da, da, you stop and think what’s another way of looking at this. Yeah. Why, why not me? And that was empowering, you know, it was empowering. Yeah, someone posted the name of that book and [00:46:00] you can I’m not sure who this is. It says LinkedIn user. So I can’t tell who it is, but the name of the book that dealt with feelings is permission to feel.

And I don’t remember the author, but I have it here somewhere. And if you wanna message me, I can look it up for you, but it’s permission to feel. And I think I know Oprah Winfrey interviewed the person who wrote it. I actually have a piece of paper that has like a feelings in, it’s got a list of all these different feelings.

So sometimes, you know, I’ll look at it like, what am I feeling? Oh, that’s a feeling I didn’t realize that was a, a name of a feeling. So that’s a way of learning. Yeah. Cause I mean, so when you raise it, I’ve noticed that my. My son and his wife, you know, really talked to their five year old about what is help him name his feelings.

Mm-hmm like, what is it that you’re feeling? You, you feel sad or, you know, whatever. Right. They use different words. So to help little kids recognize what they’re feeling too and learn how to deal with it. Oh, I think. Absolutely. Do, do you remember these old, the old [00:47:00] poster that had different facial expressions on it and feelings underneath?

Yeah, we can use, we use that adults can use that as adults and say, which one kind of fits me. Right. And you know, what is this feeling and where is it coming from and how can I not avoid it? How can I feel it? But then let it go. Yes. Let that energy leave my body. Right. You studied, you learned lessons from the Dai Lama and you also learned Eastern and Western some Eastern Western medicine.

That’s what some of the learnings that you incorporated into your book, right? Yes. Yeah. Yes. When I was on this journey, I did and anybody could have done this, so I wasn’t, it wasn’t, I wasn’t special. I was just, so I wanna make that clear. I spent four and a half days in with teachings with the Dai Lama and kind of explored, you know, that that philosophy and you know, the concept of, of detaching or [00:48:00] recognizing that if we are going to attach, we risk having pain, but is it worth it?

Mm, detaching from others detaching from things. I, you know, I pride myself on pride or ego maybe involved, like I like my garden. You. How do I begin recognizing that if I take pride in something or I become attached to something that when there’s a change, I may experience grief and sadness because that’s kind of the price that I pay and that’s, I, I really simplifying it here.

Yeah, but that’s, you know, that’s how I view it. So I make a conscious choice if I want to invest in something and fully invest with my emotions, you know, there’s no guarantee this will last forever. Like your dogs. Absolutely. I see them on your Facebook page. Mine’s [00:49:00] over here, Pearl. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I have one that has cancer now.

And you know, it’s that decision making process. He’s very old, but the part of me wants to say, I wanna do whatever I can, whatever I can to kind of keep him alive. But that’s about. right. Really? I think more than it is about him. Well, it, they teach us about a lot in, in coaching. It’s like, you know, coaching you’re looking for, you would like to help people.

That’s why you’re a coach. Right? You wanna find a client. So you, someone says that they’re interested, you get on a discovery call with them and, and they don’t sign up for your coaching. Right. So do you get really upset about that? Do you let it like ruin your day or like, you’re trying to convince your boss of something you’re attached.

This one outcome. It has to happen this way and then it doesn’t right. Can you deal with the feeling, but then let it go. [00:50:00] Yes. And, and that’s, I think the that’s where mindfulness meditation can, can be incredibly useful. And there is a chapter in my book about, you know, how do you not take things personally?

You know, and if I, if you don’t do these things like investment in a pro project or, or something else, think about what you’re going to miss. You know, I, I don’t wanna give up, give up something that I may enjoy doing because I may fail at it. Yeah. You know, I’ll give you, this is kind of a corny example.

When I was in third grade, my teacher held up two. Pictures that we had to color. One was how you do it. And one was how you didn’t do it. And I thought I did pretty good. Mine was don’t do it. And so that really turned me off from, was your picture she held up? Yes. Yes, but she didn’t say the name, but that was my picture.

She held up. Well, I was crushed. I was just absolutely crushed and I just thought, you know, I avoided art. As I, as I went through this process with this model I developed, I ended up starting pottery. Am I a great Potter? Heck no, but do I [00:51:00] love it and enjoy it? Yes I do too. Yeah. I, would’ve never done that if I hadn’t kind of said, okay, I gotta be, I have to face it’s like face what I fear face faith said I’m just like a mediocre Potter.

Yeah, boy, it’s fun. And oh, I love it’s. Okay. I take it with my mom and we go on the wheel, but this is where my mom’s like inner critic comes up and it’s from, I mean, I see it a lot more in, in pottery. It’s like. Do you think we’ll ever make one as good as that? What, and then I ask the person, how many mugs have you made thousand?

Yes. Yes. Okay. If we make a thousand, we probably will. And, and so I can just, I, some of the things she says out loud just makes me think, oh man, what’s going on in her head. And, and she has her dad who would pick on her, like your nose is so big and, and just things like that. So she grew up with this really strong inner critic and it’s so awesome.

What she does now, she, she bought a kiln cuz we couldn’t take classes during COVID and she [00:52:00] put it in her basement and she hand builds now and I post some of her things on on, on Facebook and everyone wants to buy her stuff and she’s like, well, there’s a, there’s a problem with that one, a problem with that one.

So the rare time when something comes out on the kiln and she says, I love it. I’m like, yes, yes, yes. And you know, even if they all were, nobody wanted to buy it, just the process of doing it. Oh, she’s, she’s really loving it now. And I think she’s really starting to see. she’s good at it. Good. So she’s got her own unique style, so it’s, it’s awesome to see her having worked through that too.

But pottery is just so fun. Yeah. Yeah. It is. And pottery is an example. I don’t know how many people out there have done pottery or some kind of art where you just get into it and you go into the zone. That’s mindfulness, that’s mindfulness, mindfulness doesn’t mean you have to sit cross like that on the floor and go there’s multiple things that you can, you know, do it’s just focusing on the present.

Yeah. Allowing just to experience. [00:53:00] Yep. I wrote a blog about pottery, cuz I, it was like probably people know this, but I was just like, oh my gosh, I can see this now. It’s like, potteries like life. And cuz in order to have a, an Eve, a bowl or a mug with the, even around, you have to have it centered, the clay has to be centered at the beginning.

You can’t rush through it. And so when the Clay’s UN centered. The, the Bold’s gonna be UN uncentered or whatever it is you’re making, it’s gonna be uneven and wobbly. And it’s like, when we’re not centered right. Then we’re kind of, that’s a great example, wobbly. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that’s a great example. Yeah.

Yes. Potter’s a lot like life. Yes. Yes. So, so if somebody wanted to work with you, how do they reach out to you? They would contact me through my website, Nancy stella.com. It actually, that will actually lead to someone else who then forwards me the messages. That’s usually the easiest way to reach me.

[00:54:00] You know, as the, one of the things that’s tricky as a psychologist is we can’t practice across state lines unless we’re licensed in a different state. So I do limit, you know, I will do some coaching you know, across state lines, but not necessarily from a psychological role. Okay. So do you have space to take on clients and stuff with people?

Not right now. I don’t. But if someone is interested, I, you know, right now I’m scheduling about six months out. Wow. Yeah. That’s awesome for you. Yeah. It, well, it, it is, well, it is. It’s good and bad cuz I mean, it’s like it’s, nothing’s ever good or bad, but it’s like, wow. A lot of people need help. That’s that’s the hard part about it.

And I do, you know, I, I self-care is important to me. I know if I take on someone and I don’t have room for them, I am not going to be able to either get them in regularly or be fully it’s very important work I do to be fully present. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I’m a coach and yes. One of the areas I coach in, we haven’t talked about it yet is at all and.

[00:55:00] We’re gonna wrap up, but is positive intelligence, which is all about strengthening your mental fitness, which is all about creating new neural pathways in your mind. Yes, absolutely. And the mindfulness and, and doing it throughout the day and the importance of practicing it. So if somebody wants to learn more about that program, you can go to my website, cuz that is something that, that, that I coach on.

And actually I just started supporting that positive intelligence, the company as the us government accounts director, meaning I’m responsible for helping find a clients in state, federal, and local government that could use this positive Intel, you know, benefit from strengthening their mental fitness.

And yes, just imagine if, if we all were had. You know, strengthened mental fitness understood this about ourselves were more mindful. I think it would stop a lot of the violence and a lot of the hate and the arguing and everything that’s going on in this country. I think if we all just kind of looked at ourselves and worked on [00:56:00] ourselves and strengthened our mental fitness, strengthened our brains and, you know, created new neural pathways, it would be awesome.

Oh, it would be, it would be good for you. I hope that that is successful. thanks. Yeah, me too. I I’m excited. Yeah. I mean, I’ve, I had a career in the federal government. A lot of people want me to help them sell their stuff and, and I haven’t done it, but I, I really believe in this positive intelligence it aligns with where I like to coach.

And I really do think that there’s so many people stressed out. So, you know, you’re, you’re full with clients. Other coaches are full, there’s plenty to go around. And there’s plenty of positive intelligence slash mental fitness coaches like me, if you don’t wanna work with me, but it’s definitely worth it to take a look at ourselves.

We all have areas where we can work. I mean, I’ve got a coach and a counselor, you’ve you, you work with another therapist, right? So we all, yes. Have areas. If, if you’re sitting there saying, well, I’m good. I don’t need to work on anything. I would say [00:57:00] look again, probably. Yeah. Yes. We’re we are, we are an evolving, we, we’re never completely there.

Yeah. And that’s okay. That’s as part of what makes us human. Right. Right. Which is good. So thank you for this comment says Nancy and Emily, thank you for this very insightful evening, which I is exactly what I needed at this moment in my life. I’m looking forward to sharing this with others. I appreciate the time you both took tonight to share your stories and wisdom.

Oh, thank you. Oh, thank you. Thank when I log onto LinkedIn. I’ll see who wrote that, cuz I can’t really tell right now, but okay. So thank you all for watching. Thank you Nancy, for being my guest tonight. I really enjoyed it. Well, thank you Emily. 

Thank you everybody for watching. Guess what? I’m going live again tomorrow night. I guess my hyper achiever saboteur God in my brain and said, Emily, do one more live. Well, I’m excited about it. Aisha Crumbine is a friend of mine. We went through coaching school together. She is just awesome. So I hope you can join me tomorrow night at 7:00 PM [00:58:00] Eastern.

When I interview Aisha. All right, talk to you guys later. Have a great week. Onward live is sponsored by Emily Harmon, coaching and consulting. Visit my website, Emily harmon.com to learn more about me and my coaching programs. I’d love to help you create a life you love living. Remember every adversity is our own personal university.

Sometimes the lessons are difficult and we must learn from our experiences. Vulnerability is your superpower. You are lovable and worthy, and we discuss these topics and more because professional is personal. Thank you for joining us in engaging with.