Lessons from a Female Pioneer who Embraced Challenges From Up Above

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Hi, everybody who’s watching, uh, live. And for those of you who are listening later, when this is published as a podcast, I appreciate you guys welcome. I’m excited to, uh, introduce my guest. She’s a friend of mine, captain Barb bell, and, uh, we’ve known each other for a while and we have a lot in common and we’re looking forward to this discussion as well.

So let me introduce Barb. Flying has helped Barbara Bell view the world differently as one of the first women to graduate from the United States Naval academy and the United States Naval test [00:02:00] pilot school. Her perspective from up above has prepared her to empower the next generation of female leaders.

And she does that by, you know, lots of different ways, but one of the ways, and we’ll talk about a lot of ’em, uh, tonight on the show, but one of the ways is in 1992, she and her fellow eight fellow aviators went to Capitol hill to help successfully repeal the combat exclusion laws, opening up combat aircraft and ships to women in the services.

So, you know, I graduated in 1985, Barb graduated in 1983. When I graduated, uh, there was. Two different kinds of ships. I could go on. I think it was a destroyer tender and a submarine tender. We didn’t have very many options and it’s because of people like Barb, that women today have many more options from which to choose.

So let me bring Barb in. Welcome. Hi Emily. I am so excited to be here tonight, you know, thank you friend from a long, for many years. Yes. We’ve walked a lot of similar paths. [00:03:00] Yes. Yeah, it’s great.

So Barb. Uh, welcome. And I’m excited to talk about your book, which I have here, you know, and my dad has my mom and dad, after they read it, they’re like, oh my gosh, she’s amazing. She’s amazing. She, I felt like saying, well, what about me? You know, she’s amazing.

She’s amazing. My dad even emailed you right. Yeah, you did. Yeah, you did. yeah, it’s really, you know, it’s really a story. It’s, you know, it’s, it’s my story, but it’s, uh, it’s a greater story. Of course. You know, it’s about the, you know, the work that we did, you know, at the Naval academy, in those early years, mm-hmm, , you know, where the law that we could be there and much of our experiences was telling us differently, but we persisted, you know, we picked up, you did one foot and put it in front of the other and then it did it again and again, [00:04:00] and it, you know, it made all the difference, made all the difference in our own lives.

You know, the Naval academy changes all of us. There is just no doubt about that. And it’s allowed me to connect with amazing, you know, amazing women. Who’ve been through that similar journey, you know? Yeah. I saw you years ago. It’s like, Hey, I get you, you know, you get me it’s it’s it’s wonderful. Yeah. This, we have this amazing sisterhood now.

Yeah, no, we do. Well, why did you decide to tell your story and write a book? I mean, it’s one thing to do everything you’ve done, but then to sit down and write it and put it in a book that that’s a lot of work, you know, it’s, uh, it’s so funny. I’ve been telling my story for years. Uh, speaking in front of live audiences when, you know, from kindergarten on up through, you know, executives and it was, um, I think it was, it was in 20, uh, it was in 2017.

I was finishing my doctorate at Vanderbilt and I was interviewing a gentleman down in Orlando, Florida for on a totally different subject. And he stopped me [00:05:00] mid-interview and he said, you need to write your book and I’m give you the name of the woman who’s gonna help you do that. And her name was Wendy Kurtz and it felt like a bolt of lightning that came out of the sky.

And I thought, okay, all right, God, I get it. It is time. I have been told that many I’ve told that myself to myself over the years and other people have said, you really need to write this down. So I. Yeah, Wendy. That’s interesting. Cuz she must, she, you know, she was emailing me because she was on the media notice for the show.

Right. So she was emailing me and then her husband is from Stanton, which is where I live. Oh my gosh. So small world. It’s very, it’s a very small world. Yeah. Yes. You know, it’s important that we, one that we all tell our stories because we empower others by doing that. Mm-hmm , you know, and, and two, it was just, it was critical that, you know, I could feel it from inside me that I needed to do this.

And I’ve been really, um, [00:06:00] really surprised with how well it’s been received, you know? Yeah. You take a risk to, to tell your story. Absolutely. And uh, my, my male classmates, uh, business leaders are really enjoying it. They’re saying, Hey, this is a story that needs to be told. That’s nice. , it’s nice to be supported by your classmates.

Yes. And uh, very much so. So, yeah, so that’s how, that’s how I, I did it. It was like, okay, you need to write this down and I’m gonna give you the name of the woman who’s gonna help you do that. So I appreciate Wendy Kurtz said Elizabeth, Charles and associates mm-hmm and she guided me through this process.

Mm-hmm awesome. So, so you’ve got a bachelor’s degree in systems engineering and then a master’s degree in aeronautical engineering and another master’s in theology and a doctorate in education from Vanderbilt. How do you have time to do all of that? well, [00:07:00] I retired a number of years ago from the Navy, right.

And I took time to unwind. Uh, I had had this highly technical career and, uh, as, particularly as a program manager, a high stress environment, I wanted more time with my children. So I retired, you know, I, I did some consulting work and then I just felt this itch. I, I need to do something different. and so that’s something different was actually to, uh, explore theology.

So I joined, uh, you know, I went to Merrill Hirst university and I thought, I’ll, I’ll give this a try. You know, this is something, this is something totally different. So I’ll do that. And while I was, uh, studying theology at Merrill Hurst had a massive life change. My husband didn’t wanna be married anymore, but that place kind of caught me and I, and what I discovered, you know, sometimes, you know, trying something different will help you discover aspects about yourself that you’ve either forgotten mm-hmm or have always been there and need to be [00:08:00] amplified.

I, I rediscovered my love of writing. I rediscovered my love of education and that actually spurred me on to go to Vanderbilt university yeah. And pursue a doctorate education. So I could help develop the next generation of leaders. That’s it’s interesting. We both chose. Paths that are not the typical path that somebody chooses when they retire from the military or even from the federal government.

Like I did. I mean, mm-hmm, , you were a consultant for a little bit, but then you kind of stopped that. Right? Right. I did some consulting for a little bit, but then I’m like, I wanna be a coach and it, I, it, I spent some time becoming a coach getting to be a certified coach and all that. And then now I’m kind of back in the federal contracting arena a little bit because I’m representing positive intelligence, the, one of the coaching programs that I love and helping them get back into the federal government and you’re back into kind of science, the stem [00:09:00] area.

Right. And helping girls. Right. Get into stem. Yeah. I’m a, yeah. I’m a huge advocate for, for girls and women in stem. Yeah, absolutely. You know, that’s part of the, you know, the preface for my book, you know, my, my target audience, when I wrote this book was actually young women to seek, to empower young women.

But it has, that has a broader message, which is resonating that you can, you can do what you set, you know, set your mind to that you can recreate yourself. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. So we, yeah, go ahead. So we were talking earlier about, you know, feeling that need to recreate ourselves on a, almost on a periodic basis.

I, I think it’s, it was drilled into me with 28 years of service, about every two to three years I needed a new tour. Right. So I left the, uh, the center for stem education for girls and was invited by Vanderbilt to come and teach leadership to undergrads. And, oh my gosh. I just, uh, I love teaching, teaching [00:10:00] undergraduates.

It came as a, it came as a surprise to me, I thought, oh, heck, I’ll try it. Yeah. And actually, I just, I just got outta class just a little over an hour ago. So I have a, I have a new, uh, crew of students and they’re amazing. Yeah. Awesome.

Barb, in your book, you, you said that you had some key quotes highlighted. Do you wanna talk about some of those key messages in your books or book or key quotes?

Absolutely. I, I have some of them tapped and you know, I guess the first one is, uh, as women, we can support each other and share our stories and the tools we have developed to navigate new frontiers, you know, you and I we’re certainly pioneers, uh, at the Naval academy and, you know, ultimately, you know, we helped to change, change the Navy and [00:11:00] change Naval.

So other women can do that. You can pioneer in a, a multitude of ways. So, you know, that’s, that’s, you know, one thing I think of, uh, one of my other quotes is no, as a complete sentence. I know, I love that. yeah, I’m getting, I’m getting great feedback on that one. Uh, because, you know, as my book is broken up into three different sections and the first part is gritting it out and then navigating turbulence, then earning your wings.

So, you know, after, after all these years at the, you know, at the Naval academy and all that, we went through had built that great foundation of, you know, of, of grit and persistence. But then as I went on to, um, they went on to flight school, I had to, I had to protect my boundaries. Yeah. You know, people were gonna test my boundaries.

And so that no was a complete sentence when I, I always, I usually tell the story when I, um, out on the speaking circuit that, um, I got to flight school. [00:12:00] Here. I had gone through four years of all that challenge at the Naval academy got to flight school. My class date was delayed. Uh, I was assigned a job because a single Marine captain saw me and he wanted me to come work for him.

So I showed up at his office and the first thing he asked me was whether I could type. And I thought, my gosh, I’ve gone through four years of that at the Naval academy. And you’re asking me whether I can type, okay, this is, you know, this is the 1980s, right. You’re gonna be asked something else mm-hmm . But what he was doing is he was testing my boundaries and I said, you know, sir, the reason I joined the Navy is to fly.

If I had to type for a living I’d starved at death, sir. So I, you know, start with sir. And with sir, you can say almost anything in between. He’s like he was, you know, he was seeing where my boundaries were and then he proceeded to. Hey, um, well, the next thing you asked me or told me that I had to, I had to make coffee every day.

Mm-hmm again, I’m thinking all that I have gone [00:13:00] through at the Naval Academy. And what I learned at the Naval Academy is what is in my head does not immediately come out my mouth. Yeah. So I transitioned that into, you know, sir, I don’t drink coffee and I don’t make coffee again. It was, here’s my boundary.

And I, I tell, uh, young women today. It’s not a matter of if it’s gonna happen to you. It’s only a matter of when. Yeah. I’m sure you have a similar story or similar stories. many, many, many similar stories. And, uh, you wrote in your book too about being the only woman in the room. A lot of the times in meetings and stuff, right?

Mm-hmm that happened to me too. So put it to put it in perspective. Barb was a class of 1983. Women were first grad first graduated. The first class graduated in 1980. So you were in the fourth class of women to graduate. And I was in the sixth class, graduated in 1985. So there were not many, very many, I mean, how many women graduated in your class?

I [00:14:00] think there was like 72 in mine, out of like 1200. Well, we started with 90 women and 53 graduated mm-hmm so if you wanna know, uh, what 53 examples of grit, persistence looks like I can, uh, I can show you a, a photo of my, uh, female classmates. Yeah. Yeah. Women were only 6% of the student body when I was there.

And it was very similar, you know, same, you know, same for you. mm-hmm and so we were, you know, we always stuck out. Right. We always did. We did I remember walking to class and, uh, tourists would be like, there’s one, there’s one there’s one. Uh, yeah. You know, there there’s a female. And then I remember, uh, going to a guy’s I, that I was, you know, had a date with that night.

He was a midshipman and went to his sponsor’s house. You know, the, the mid, we usually had a, a family out in town that would sponsor us. So we had a house to go to on the weekend and stuff, and she came down, she saw me and she said, [00:15:00] you’re a midshipman, but you’re pretty. Oh, . Yeah. And so you experienced things like that too, you know, it’s so funny.

I, right. You know, right in front of me is my favorite, um, uh, is my favorite print. I bought it when I graduated from the Naval Academy and it’s a woman midshipman and she’s walking downtown Annapolis and she’s going past Rearden’s, it’s no longer there. It’s something else. And there are four, um, you know, there are four waiters and they’re all looking at her and I know exactly what they’re saying.

They’re saying there goes a girl, one Uhhuh and so yes, we were those girl ones. Mm-hmm yeah. Yeah. So Brad wants to know, how are you engaging with girls to engage them with stem as women are certainly underrepresented in those areas? Oh, you know, I have been, I’ve been doing this for years. Uh, probably one of the most important things that I do specifically is to be a role [00:16:00] model.

Like I said, I’ve been out, I’ve been speaking for over over 30 years. Uh, I just joined a group, Astra, Mina, uh, lots of, uh, women astronauts. Uh, and we are, you know, we are working together to get out to different organizations K through 12, and whether that’s virtually or whether that’s in person, we’ve received some great funding, uh, recently to, to fund our trips.

So I’m doing that as the director of the center for stem education for girls, I, you know, I’ve written about, uh, uh, girls and, uh, women in stem. Like you gotta be able to see it to believe it mm-hmm , but there are other things too. It’s like recognizing that, um, you know, girls want to do something with a higher purpose.

And so we have to attach stem to that higher purpose. Yeah. That makes no longer is that story. Are you good in math and science? Hey, then you could be an engineer. Do you wanna solve the problems of the world then go into stem. [00:17:00] You know, absolutely. They want it tied to a higher purpose, uh, inquiry based and project based learning is incredibly important for girls.

There’s also another aspect that is, that is not as well known that, uh, there’s a gap between girls and boys in terms of 3d spatial skills. Oh, and we can, we can fill that gap. So there’s some extensive, uh, research done by Dr. Cheryl Sobe and she’s created, uh, curricula to help girls close that gap. But what I tell parents is that, you know, get your girls out into the garage, you know, give them, you know, give them Legos and build to, um, build to a, a pattern, not just build things with Legos, learn how to rotate and translate and see things in that, in those three dimensions.

Yeah. So that’s another, you know, key piece and ex you know, exposure to role models for sure is very critical. Mm-hmm . Hi, [00:18:00] Greg. Greg Olson says these quotes. Hi, be interesting. Viva’s great. At S a . I hope you’ve read the book, Greg. . I think he has. I think he’s already written to me. He has read the book uh, and Brad says Ethan as an L CPO.

I never understood why females in the Navy were treated poorly. All I saw was a good officer and leader in front of me when I was, when I was doing, uh, one brief. Yeah. Mm-hmm well, I, I mean, I kind of remember. Let’s see. And somebody is saying, uh, Joe K says, thinking about time’s difficulty. What did you learn early?

That has helped you along the way? That’s a good question, Joe. Hi, Joe. Nice to, nice to have you online. So yeah, so answering, you know, answering that question, I, I go back to the foundations of my time at the Naval academy. And they say, well, you know, while the loss said we could be there, much of our experience was telling us differently.

And so it was just, you know, learning to rely on one another. I had two fantastic roommates. [00:19:00] So that really taught me the importance of, of having those come alongside you and particularly other women mm-hmm that was, uh, that was really, uh, really critical to me. Um, what I learned too is, uh, what it is to live life and the minority.

And so that has actually given me a heart to serve others who are in the minority, whether that’s chosen or UN chosen. So in these ti, you know, current times of difficulty, I look back and say, okay, I’ve been through, I’ve been through challenging times before I’ve done that. I can do what’s right in front of me looking back and saying, I have that foundation.

So when was it that you decided you wanted to go to the Naval Academy? Oh my gosh. So my, um, my parents, uh, they told all, all three children that we were going to college and we [00:20:00] need to figure out how to get there. And so I don’t know if they did that at nine whispered into our ears while we were asleep, you know, that subliminal, um, messaging mm-hmm , but we knew that, uh, we were going to college.

There wasn’t a question mm-hmm but finding our way to get there. My older brother, he went off to the air force academy, his high school football coach encouraged him to take a look at, uh, at air force. So he went off to the air force academy. And when I went out to visit him for parents’ weekend, I’m I’m two years, uh, uh, younger than Dan and I saw all the opportunity that he had.

I wasn’t gonna settle for anything less. Mm-hmm . So I started looking at the Naval academy, cuz I didn’t wanna be his little sister yeah, I’d had, I’d had enough of that. Yeah. So that’s what inspired me to, um, to apply to the Naval academy, you know, while I knew intellectually that women were in the minority, uh, you know, our experience was, you know, living that experience was, [00:21:00] was far different, but it gave me that elite education that my family couldn’t afford that I wanted so desperately.

So it started with that desire for education and then, um, you know, transitioned into really that desire to serve and become a Naval officer. Yeah. And it opened the entire world to me, I’m from a small town and I’ve traveled the world. It’s been, you know, it’s been really remarkable. Yeah. And then you, did you have a, another sibling that went to a military academy too?

I did. So we all, we all follow Dan started and then I went to Navy and then my younger brother, Jim decided to go to the air force academy. So my parents paid nothing for us to go to college and then my, then what’s remarkable is my older brother. He completed the trifecta. So he has, he has three sons, his oldest and youngest went to air force and the, the smart one, Michael went to the Naval academy.

Oh, , that’s awesome. You know, I just gave my [00:22:00] parents a, uh, they had a 60 year wedding anniversary and I gave them a book where you, you know, it was Shutterfly where you put all the pictures in and, and there was a picture that I had of us visiting the Naval academy back before women were able to go. And oh, wow.

Yeah. So my dad’s standing on the sea wall with me and my brother and my sister. And then I put that, I next to that, I put a picture of me at graduation day with my brother in his air force academy uniform, and my sister who just, um, finished her first year at the Naval academy, both saluting me. So I said on that page, I said, who knew that when we visited the academy, that all three of us would end up, uh, going now, my brother didn’t stay.

He left after two years. I think he had, um, I think what, what he had a life changing experience, which I think made him like, ah, I wanna, you know, so he left, he had a, like, um, his appendix almost exploded. And then when he was in the recovery room, he had like a muscle spasm in his larynx and he, and he was choking.

And I [00:23:00] think that just had him like relook at his life and figure out what he wanted to do. So he left and ended up going to USC. But yeah, all three of us were in. Oh, I didn’t know that about you. yeah, that’s pretty cool. And then Sylvia says, when we were talking about being a, a woman, a minority, she’s saying it’s a lot worse as a double minority, a minority.

I, I concur mm-hmm I concur. Yep. And so, you know, part of the work that I’m doing right now is to, you know, to help, uh, young women and young women of color, uh, to learn how to, to press forward in the world, how to really find your voice. What suggestions do you have for that? Oh, one of my, my first suggestions is take up a lot of space.

How do you do that? I was working with a young woman last semester and I said, you know, take up two chairs, like spread out, make your, like there’s subtle [00:24:00] ways that you can make your presence known. Well, one of those simple ones is take up some space. Well, when I was at the Pentagon, um, you know, and, and even at NAVAIR, I think you saw this too, where, you know, the, the, the there’s a meeting at the table, but the women, a lot of times tend to go and sit in the chairs in the, around the edge of the room.

Oh. And not at the table. Unbelievable. Go sit at the table, go sit at the table. If there is a spare chair at the table, take it. Mm-hmm . I was consulting, uh, you know, in the aerospace sector. And there was a V VP and then a director, and they were complaining both women and they were complaining about not, you know, not being fully, um, you know, fully part of, you know, the executive team.

I thought I gotta sit at the table. Right. You have to sit at the table. I was a consultant and I was sitting at the table and they [00:25:00] were sitting behind me. take your seat at the table. Yeah. And then spread out my friend, my friend. She, she tends to take up two seats and she’s, she’s in a different sector.

She is a, uh, you know, she’s an architect and she works in the, you know, on the commercial side of things. Big, huge projects, Uhhuh and yeah, hell yeah. Sit in front and show up big. Right. I agree. and so when she’s going to, uh, you know, a meeting that’s, you know, that’s all men or predominantly men, she takes her, you know, she takes her best heels with her and that elevates her by, you know, three or four inches and she, yeah.

And she always takes up space at the table. I, I talk about Anna in my book, Uhhuh, take up some space. Yeah. Show up big. Yep. And you know, it doesn’t have to be waving your hands, but sometimes internally, if you just say, I’m gonna show up. and [00:26:00] I’m gonna show up big, I’m going to take up space, you know, that could be energetically.

It makes a difference. Yeah. Your energy shows that I’m here. I’m confident. I have something to say, I can contribute to this conversation and I’m going to speak up. Yep. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So Brad says leaders lead from the front something. I, I imparted to my daughters so they don’t shrink away.

Yeah. And it’s important for men to share this with their daughters, right? Absolutely. Okay. Brad, you gotta buy my book and give it to your daughters. I also agree that leaders can lead from behind. So there’s leading from the front and there’s also leading from behind. But as you’re, you know, early on in your career that take up space, you know, you belong and you belong at the, you belong at the front table.

Mm-hmm . So, so you go around on the speaking circuit and speak about your book. What are some of the stories that you, uh, like to tell from your book or from your career? [00:27:00] Oh, oh my goodness. So I, I talk about going, you know, going off to the Naval academy and thinking that I, I knew what I was getting myself into.

that’s, you know, that’s kind of funny. I, I think of, you know, those times of adversity, uh, you weren’t there at school at this time, but, uh, uh, my PLE year, so my, uh, freshman year is when, uh, James Webb published his article. Oh. Uh, in the Washingtonian magazine called women can’t fight. And it was very.

Critical, uh, of women at the service academy. Mm-hmm uh, and then on the heels of that, the chief of Naval operations came to speak at, at school. And I don’t remember what he said during the lecture, but I’ll tell you, I do remember. And I remember for the rest of my life, when he said afterwards, a very brave woman, Kathy Bussel, I think she had graduated.

She might have no, she was there. When, uh, when you were there, she was class of 82. And, uh, she asked the question. She said, [00:28:00] you know, sir, uh, you know, many women are going to be getting desk jobs as they graduate from the academy. Uh, that’s how my roommate remembers. And what I remember is that she said, you know, sir, uh, you’ve allowed women at the Naval academy.

Why are you not opening up the jobs? And he turned it around on her and he said, so are you telling, I, I think you’re telling me that women don’t belong here. And about 4,000 men, I can’t say it was every man, uh, stood up and gave him a standing OV. that mean that’s the kind of environment that we were in.

Yeah. That’s the kind of environment that we were in, you know, today in education, we talk about microaggressions, you know, the, the smaller, more subtle slights that, uh, that women and, you know, uh, students of color receive, uh we’ve we faced a lot of macro aggressions. And so you’d say in some ways we’ve made, we’ve made progress in, in other ways, we still, you still have, [00:29:00] uh, quite a ways to go.

Absolutely. But wow. I can see why that moment stood out for sure. Yeah, those definitely did. Mm-hmm I remember, um, after plebe summer, the senior, the Firstie the senior women came and told us. To be aware that the relationship with our classmates was probably gonna change after plebe summer because plebe summer, we had been together with our, you know, the, our classmates and our company.

We developed very close relationships. You had to know everyone’s first and last name, their hometown, and know so much about them. Right? And, and you go through all these tough times with them. So you’re really close to them and you’ve really bonded. And they were saying that, be aware that when the brigade, when all of the other mid shipment come back, the, the kind of peer pressure’s gonna change and, and, and, and your male classmates may not treat you the way you would expect.

Mm-hmm , we didn’t, we thought that’s [00:30:00] crazy. That’s not gonna happen, but it did. And I’m not saying it happened with every, you know, male classmate or at all, but it did happen. And mm-hmm , it was challenging. What helped me get through was sports. I played basketball. . What about you having that close sports team helped me, uh, absolutely having that sports team.

So I ran cross country and track and we had two fabulous Marine coaches. Uh, you major Mike Sheie and major Dunham mm-hmm and, you know, Mike cheaty, he was always so incredibly positive. Like, Hey, let’s go do it. I mean, he made you wanna run up the hill , you know, and then, uh, major Dunham, he was more the drill Sergeant, but we had, you know, we had the women’s weight room and we could bet away from, you know, get away from all that was going on, you know, in Bancroft hall and be together.

And then the advantage of being a runner is that we, um, we ran outside the [00:31:00] gate. Oh, nice. We could, we could literally get outside. You could escape so we escape. So I know a lot of running paths, you know, outside the, the gates at the Naval academy. yeah. So it, it really. Develops close bonds. Like my two roommates, um, that I had throughout the academy, we went to Mexico for our 40th birthday and for our 50th, we went to Costa Rica and we’re, it’s our 60th next year.

We’re gonna go to Hawaii for a couple weeks together. So we’re still really close. So it’s really nice. Well, I, I dedicated my book to milli and Karen mm-hmm they were my roommates for four years. Yeah, we are, I don’t have a sister, but we are tighter than sisters. That’s awesome. They’re they’re amazing women in their own, right?

Yeah. Yeah. So, um, what made you wanna be a pilot? So I was a Naval flight officer. Mm-hmm I didn’t have 2020 vision, but I could still fly in a, you know, in a different way. Mm-hmm [00:32:00] and you know, I can even go back to my brother going off to the air force academy. He didn’t have the vision to be a pilot. So my parents told him that he, they could take, he could take flying lessons and they would pay for.

So my first class year, my senior year, I called him up and I said, Hey, I just signed up for flying lessons. So I’m sure you’re gonna pay for that. they said what? Well, it was, it was open to him, obviously it was open to me so that, you know, that spurred my interest. Uh, I wanted to do, I wanted to keep pioneering.

Yeah. And so flying, uh, flying was a way to do that. So I decided, okay, that’s what I’m gonna do. And then I had also met, uh, Lieutenant at that time, Lieutenant Colleen Nevius. She was the first, uh, Navy woman to graduate from Navy test pilot school. I met her when I was a, when I was a first classman, I was like, oh, that’s what I’m gonna do.

I’m not only gonna fly, but after that, I’m gonna go to test pilot school. You really set some big goals for yourself. [00:33:00] I did. I mean, looking back, you know, it, it didn’t seem like it at the time, you know, it was just like, oh my gosh, test pilot school. I could combine flying with my engineering background and like, oh my gosh, that is incredible.

and it, you know, and it was, it was absolutely incredible, uh, you know, to, to, uh, apply to, and get accepted to Navy test pilot school. Yeah. So the, and then, um, oh, what was I gonna say? It just, uh, slipped my mind. I’m getting a little older. Oh, you were a program manager. So that’s a big deal too. Being a program manager at the Naval air systems command in charge of an acquisition program.

There’s not a lot of, uh, female Navy captains that, that do that. no, I have, I have this theme of being the only, or one of the only, yeah. And usually it’s, uh, it leans more towards the only. so I was [00:34:00] the, I was the only woman in my flight school class. Uh, I was the only woman in my test, pilot school class, uh, you know, my first command that they had never had a woman, uh, in that role.

My second command was as a Navy program manager. You know, I was, I was the first, uh, you know, woman aviator, uh, across the Navy to go to become a, a major program manager. So by that time I was, I was so used to it. Yeah. And I will say, I’m gonna give you the bottom line of my book. Uh, I knew I was never gonna fit in, so I chose to stand out.

And honestly, the program that I took over was struggling and I immediately brought visibility to that, to that program office, by being who I was, and that allowed us, you know, that helped. Get the right resources, uh, and people and team members to turn, to turn [00:35:00] things around. So what do you mean by being who you were by being a female or by being, uh, Barb who is not gonna hide that?

The programs struggling and is gonna go find the resources by being you? I, yes. And yes. Mm-hmm yes. And yes. You know, we, we learned back at the Naval academy, we were always gonna be watched mm-hmm I remember getting to flight school and I tell the story in my book. I, I, I was going to, I was speeding on base and I got pulled over.

And with that, I was given a ticket and an invitation to meet the commanding officer in the base. so, um, I remember, you know, showing up at his office. I, I had my uniform on AB you know, nothing outta place. My hair was pulled back perfectly, and I met with him and he said to me, you’ve gotta realize. you were one of the only women here on, on base.

You’ve got to set the example, only one of the only [00:36:00] female officers and, and enlisted. There’s not a lot enlisted even on that base. Right. Right. And so I realized that I was going to be a role model, whether I liked it or not. And that was a, that was a, a defining point. I mean, how, how funny is that? You, you got caught speeding.

You go to the, all of a sudden, it’s like, okay. I, I am here, not just for myself. I am here for all the women who will follow me. And how did you handle that pressure or did you look at it as pressure? I, I didn’t look at it as pressure. I mean, we’d been through the pressure cooker of four years at the Naval academy.

It was like, okay, got it. I got it. This is what I’m gonna do. I mean, and there were some ups and downs along the way. No, you know, no doubt about it. Mm-hmm but it it’s like, okay. I’m I’m setting the example. Mm-hmm so Joe K asked, what’s been the most curious or unexpected reaction to your book so far. [00:37:00] Joe and I have lunch every, or we have breakfast every Friday morning.

And so she always asks, so she always asks great questions. She’s my great British friend, most curious, unexpected reaction to my book. The, um, the fact that people are taking action based on my book, I was on a, I was on a virtual, um, a virtual web, you know, on a web, on a webinar. And afterwards, this, this gentleman wrote to me, he said, I’ll have to tell you how much I appreciated your story.

And he says, I’ve done something I’ve never done before. He said, I immediately, um, ordered your book. I read it, cover to cover. And now I’m, uh, now I’m ordering nine more for every woman in my life. Hmm. He said, I’m gonna, I’m gonna write it, uh, you know, to these young women, I’m gonna give it to every, uh, granddaughter and, uh, God grand niece when they turned 16 thought.

Wow. [00:38:00] That’s, that’s remarkable. That’s that’s really remarkable. Yeah. So that’s, that’s the unexpected reaction. Mm-hmm yeah. I mean, one of the best parts, uh, about, uh, you know, about my book and going to book signings is that I am reconnecting with people and I’m connecting with new people and that’s been really beautiful.

Mm-hmm . Yep. It’s been really lovely. So this, uh, show is, you know, it started out as like being overcoming adversity and moving forward, which we’ve both done that, right? Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, and then it was like, uh, the onward podcast facing adversity moving forward and discovering ourselves along the way.

Cause I think you learn a lot about yourself when you go through, uh, tough times and now the theme is, uh, create a life you love living now. And what I mean by that is like, don’t wait, don’t say, well, once this happens or if I had a better boss or if I had a different job or once I retire, what can you [00:39:00] do today to really love your life?

So what advice do you have for, um, the listeners about how they can, you know, create a life that they love living now and how have you done that for yourself? I think taking that, uh, you know, a, a fierce internal or, uh, inventory of yourself. I think it, it starts with that. Okay. What is it that I don’t like about my current job?

What is it that I don’t like about my current life? It’s too busy. It’s too. This it’s too, that I often think of, uh, when I use the term I’m so I’m too busy. Uh, I have switched that to, I live a very full life words matter. Right. They have energy. Yeah. Words matter. Absolutely. I knew that, uh, you know, when I retired from the Navy, I really didn’t wanna work full time again.

Mm-hmm so I tried consulting. And so you start dabbling, tried consulting, eh, not so much. Okay. So I’m just gonna go [00:40:00] to school. So you just have to take that next step. So I went to school, did something totally different. I remember as I was studying theology, the very first day of class this professor asked me, she goes, well, how do you feel about being here?

And I just about fell outta my chair. I thought. Gosh, no one has ever asked me that in an academic environment, like, how do you feel? like, how do you feel? How do you feel about it? Um, you know, so yeah, taking a look like, okay, what’s, you know, what’s not working. Uh, what I have learned is like, when I start feeling things bubble up from inside myself, I’ve learned to look at it instead of repressing, like, oh, just forget about that.

Just push that down, you know, look at it because you know, your, your soul was trying to tell you something. Yeah. Did you learn that when you were in the Navy or after you got out, uh, you know, part started to transition as I was getting out of the Navy, you know, I could, I could feel that tap on my shoulder, like, okay, it’s time.

Yeah. You need to pass the [00:41:00] torch. You know, I thought, well, I could stay in. I, I know I could, uh, I know I could make flag. I could become an Admiral, but I had this, I just had this vision that it’d be great to put that star on. And then the next morning I’d wake up and say, why did you do. so not working full time, finding new avenues.

I have two children, you know, AFT I had, I had one son, uh, I had my son, uh, you know, while I was still in the Navy, I knew that, uh, you know, getting out would allow me to adopt my daughter. Mm-hmm , you know, and I look at her every day and it’s like, you know, that’s, she’s the reason, or she’s one of, she’s one of the very important reasons as to why I chose not to work full time, you know?

And yeah, it’s funny. You and I talked about this, I don’t know how many years ago. Right? Mm-hmm and then, um, yeah, then that like, okay, I need to do something bigger, you know, develop the next generation of leaders. I’m an adjunct right now. And I love that. I teach two [00:42:00] classes and I don’t have any other responsibilities, so I can really focus on my students.

That’s awesome. And help to develop them. So it’s like, Two classes of coaching up to 30 students at a time. It’s fantastic. Yeah. It gets busier like when it okay. When it’s, when it’s, when it’s getting busy, that’s that message like, okay, is this full or is this busy? Right. Right. So what, what, so that’s part of what you love in your life.

What else, you know, uh, do you love about your life that you’ve created? I used to think that I wanted to always work, you know, uh, in a team or in, you know, in a building, in an office. And I think COVID has helped with that. You know, working at home flexing between the two. I like the idea of a hybrid environment, uh, where I get the opportunity to work at home.

And then I, I go to Vanderbilt and I teach in person [00:43:00] mm-hmm, not flexing back and forth. Uh, you know, I’ve allowed space for a new man in my life and, you know, he showed up, which is really great. and having accountability partners, Joe who’s online. We meet every, we meet every week. She remembers when. So we met as we both moved to Nashville at the same time.

Mm-hmm and became really good friends. She was there when we would write together. And she was there when I only had an. And so, oh, nice. We keep each other and say, we keep each other balanced. And I have, I still, I have Millie and I have Karen, I have a couple great male friends that are, that are checking in on me and kind of, you know, seeing, you know, seeing if I’m not staying on track, but leaning more towards that full life instead of a busy life.

Yeah. That’s important. I, I have a couple accountability partners and, um, I think they’re very helpful. And especially when you’re at home, working by yourself, not in a team environment [00:44:00] as much, you know, it’s just kind of helpful to have some people that you can bounce ideas off of or share, you know, some challenges that you’re having that can kind of help make sure that, you know, help keep us in check.

Right. Cause right. Yeah. I think we all need that. We, we all need that. Yes. You know, I mean, what caused you to. Uh, I put on that star, I guess you would say, because I became a senior executive, which is the equivalent of, of Admiral and I, and I just was so busy and I didn’t wanna be busy anymore. And I knew it was my job keeping me busy.

And so, um, I retired and I was busier than ever. So I didn’t have a job to point to anymore. I’m like, well, what the heck’s going on? It’s not the job. It’s not my boss. It’s it’s me. It’s me. Yes. And that’s why I like to talk about cradle life. You love living now. It’s like, um, don’t wait for retirement, you know, cuz that’s what I was doing.

Well, when I [00:45:00] retire, I knew I was gonna be in great shape cuz I didn’t have all this free time, but I didn’t. I was like, so used to being chained to a desk, you know, per se that I was at the desk and I was working, I was becoming a coach. I was starting my podcast. I was doing all this stuff. And then, you know, and then, um, my former husband passing away within five months after I retired, uh, helps too, because you know, he worked at NAVAIR, he was a GS 15.

He worked and worked and worked and I saw him die with regrets, like of how he lived his life. And that made me think, how do I wanna live my life from here on out? So I started to really, you know, we plan our work life, you know, work, we plan, you know, where we’re gonna go and at work, what our objectives are for the year for work, where, where I didn’t really.

Ever sit down and like, really like, think, well, what do I want in my life? It had always been the kids and work. Right. But then what about me? You know, that’s where a great coach comes into play. Yeah, [00:46:00] absolutely. Yeah. I was, I was working with a, a coach, uh, when I was, uh, going to Merrill Hurst university, I call him, yeah, he was my three in one man.

He was a, he was a, he was a coach. He was a spiritual director and a therapist all in one, like my trifecta. And so I’d walk into his office and I’d say, okay, I don’t know who I need today, but this is it. And then I remember one day walking into his office and I said, no, settling. I said, I don’t know what that means, but I want you to hold me to that.

Mm-hmm . And I walked out of his office, having said I was gonna pursue a doctorate in leadership, in higher education at a major university. And then next year I was in Vanderbilt. You know, then as I was coming out of Vanderbilt and I was, uh, I could feel like that inflection point, okay, this, you know, this, this is gonna change.

So I got another coach and I drew these three circles and I would invite, invite everyone to think about that. So one circle was my [00:47:00] family life. Another one was my professional life. And then my personal life, you know, who am I as a woman? Mm-hmm and I wanted to see a lot of intersection. I love Venn diagrams.

I’m a, you know, it’s like, oh, there you’re an engineer, I’m an engineer. So where, where was that overlap? And what I, what did I want it to, what did I want it to look like? Yep. So, and be intentional about that and then revisit it every, uh, so often. And that’s why I told you before the show, you know, you’d asked, well, why did I decide to end the podcast?

And I, I had gone on a camping trip. I like to get away like that in nature. And I thought. All right. What do I wanna create in my life now? What what’s calling me. And, you know, I, I wanted to end this podcast before I got really tired of doing it. I’ve done over 200, uh, episodes, like two 30 or something like that.

And, um, I’m just, you know, I feel ready to create it. It probably takes like six hours a week out of my, out of [00:48:00] my week. And I, and I just want more time for myself. It’s been a gradual, uh, slowing down for me. You know, I said, when I retired that I was busier than ever, and, and it’s not like I stopped right away.

I’ve been working with coaches, I’ve been working on myself. I became a coach and now I help people. You know, my clients do the same thing that, you know, I’ve been going through, but it’s, um, looking at your life and figuring out, okay, well, wait a second, take a little pause. What do I wanna create? What do I wanna let go of?

What’s not serving me anymore in all aspects of our life and making sure that we have that balance. Mm-hmm yeah. And, um, so yeah, definitely. I’ve had the benefit of working with a lot of coaches and, and now I get to coach people and I, I just love it. That’s something I love to do. And so another reason for in the podcast, six more hours, I could spend some of that time on me and I can spend some of that, uh, time with, uh, more clients too.

Mm-hmm helping more people. So is there, there they’re different than just an accountability partner? Yeah. Yeah. And really coaches are. Yeah. So, you know, so many of these answers [00:49:00] come from, uh, deep within ourselves. Yeah. The answer’s already there and we just have to, you know, we have to tease it out on our own and, uh, getting, you know, having, uh, someone else help us tease it out.

They’ll be surprised with what emerges for sure. Absolutely. And yeah. And your coach should also have a coach. Coaches need coaches, too. Everybody, the coaches are beneficial. Yeah. So, yeah. What did you like best about flying. Oh, my gosh. Uh, oh, before I say I see Greg Olson, he said she had to deal with a lot of folks like me.

Greg, you were one of those good guys. So I, I appreciate it. He is a good guy, you know, having you as a friend back many years ago. So I wanted to address that so, oh, so flying, you know, flying, uh, was, gave me the opportunity to live in, in, in three dimensions, you know, to see things from up [00:50:00] above. And, uh, it was just talking with Greg, the, the wonderful man, uh, whom I’m in a relationship with.

And we’ve been, he was an aviator as well. That sense of up up, and you see the world differently. You see that maybe you’re not as important as you thought you were. You get to see the, you know, the, the, the whole, the contours of the United States, you know, you could live at, you could live at either coast.

We are so overpopulated, but if you get the chance to fly across the country and you see that we do things differently in many different areas. And sometimes, I mean it’s miles or hundreds of miles between communities or even, you know, probably even a thousand. So that, that sense of, of being up, uh, has helped me look at life differently.

Okay. Well, if I pull myself back, what is that? 40,000 foot perspective? Mm-hmm so that’s what I help people with [00:51:00] in my own coaching or in my own teaching mm-hmm I have that broader pers I have that broader perspective, and I also know what it means to come down low. I mean, get down and, you know, get down on the weeds or, you know, go fast on a low level.

I know what that feels like. So having had that, that opportunity, you know, changed my, like the worldview. . Yeah, absolutely. So I, I love that about flying, you know, in, in Tennessee, we often have these beautiful skies with some wonderful clouds and that’s when I miss flying. Yeah. I was gonna ask if you miss it, I’m sure you do.

Uh that’s when I miss it. Um, but then, you know, then you see some of the thunderstorms build and thinking, you know, I remember that time we were hit by lightning five times and that was pretty unpleasant. And, uh, you know, we came back and landed and I, I got out and kissed the ground and said, I could have a, I could have a desk job.

yeah. , you know, or flying up in, uh, [00:52:00] flying up in Alaska, we were headed to, um, we were headed to Anchorage and all of a sudden the weather started rolling in and we realized we couldn’t land there. So our alternate was Fairbanks. Another weather system had rolled in there, so whoa. We’re like, oh, okay. We’re gonna have to land at a little civilian field.

And. Uh, convinced them to fuel us while, because we couldn’t shut. What if we, we couldn’t shut down our jet because we didn’t have a jet starting unit at these civilian fields. So we actually ended up going all the way out to the beginning of the Ellucian chain. There was, there was an air force alert strip there.

So, wow. I mean, that was, that was pretty simple. That was, that must have been terrifying. Were you like close to running out of fuel or? Yeah, we were, I mean, we were on final and they said they gave us a directions to turn in holding cuz there was a 7 47 stuck on the end of the runway because these weather systems were covering both Fairbanks and Anchorage.

So Frank says, and the resources are different in coastal [00:53:00] cities versus the working Heartline or Alaska . Yeah. So some of it, you know, like, okay, uh, you know, they gave us, they said, well, you’re gonna have to go into hold. And like we don’t have the gas we’re landing. Well, there’s a 7 47 on the end of the runway.

Well, we’re landing. That’s fine. Wow. So sometimes you just have to put it down, right? Yeah. sometimes you have to say, no, we are landing no, no, no. Is a complete sentence. No, we are landing. Yes, we are landing. Yeah. That’s what we’re doing. so you got one, one, uh, little clip in here. It says don’t clip your own wings.

What do you mean by that? In your book? Oh, I’m looking at it. You have a, a chapter on don’t clip your own wings. Don’t clip your own wings. You know, I tell people that you have a hundred percent chance of not getting whether that is grad school, whether that is at next job, if you don’t apply mm-hmm and oftentimes women [00:54:00] think they have to have all of the qualifications for a particular job where men, uh, will say, oh, I got 30 or 40%.

Oh, I couldn’t possibly do that. No. Put your name in for it. If it scares you a little bit, Hey, that’s probably a good indication that that’s something that you should do. Yeah. So don’t say, oh, I couldn’t possibly, you know, Cheryl Sandberg, she talks about, she talked about that and lean in. Yeah. You know, where, um, you know, where women will say, well, but I wanna have a family and I wanted this and like, well, are, are you married now?

Well, no, I’m not even married. Like, oh, just, I just go for it. And don’t say, I couldn’t possibly because you know, you and I are, you know, living proof of him, Hey, you know, anyone can do it. , you know, I mean, just find your path for, for whatever that is for us. That was, that was the Naval Academy. Mm-hmm , you know, just go do it.

And some of those resources will. [00:55:00] Yeah. Greg says, NATOPS, explain what NATOPS is. NATOPS does not replace good judgment. Oh, that’s Naval aviation. I forget the rest of the acronym, but it’s the big manual that talks of, you know, that references, uh, how you fly your airplane. Yeah. You know, this is, this is how you do it.

We’d say it’s written in blood. Because a lot of mistakes have been made that have cost lives. This is how you do it. Yeah. But having, yeah. Having good judgment that that’s really like, we’re putting it down now. Yeah. We are landing. You’re gonna run outta fuel. You’re gonna land yeah. We’re landing. That’s what we’re doing.

Yeah. So, uh, if people wanna reach out to you, um, like what, what kinds of services do you offer? Like you would come to a school, maybe talk about your book or, or what kinds of things can people reach out to for, well, I do, you know, I do, uh, I speak about my book. I, um, you know, I’m a keynote speaker. I provide workshops.

I, I, you know, I will come and speak to a [00:56:00] school AB you know, absolutely. Uh, but I’ve been leaning more into, uh, into speaking, you know, and as we’re coming out of coming out of COVID, there’s more demand for that. Mm-hmm so that’s where I get the majority of my juice is by speaking to live audiences, mm-hmm.

awesome. So I do that. So you can reach out to me. Yep. As it says in the chat, uh, Barbara captain, Barbara bell.com, you can sign up for my newsletter, uh, on my website. Okay. I’d love to, um, include anyone in that here’s her website. Yeah. Which is, uh, captain Barbara bell.com. And I’ll put all this in the show notes too, for people listening.

Okay. Mm-hmm yes. That, yeah, that would be great. And then you’re on Twitter. Are you on there actively? Uh, I’m I’m working on getting more active on Twitter. We spoke about this a little bit earlier. I’m focusing on, on LinkedIn right now, Uhhuh, you know, with, uh, business audiences, you know, that’s really where it is.

Uh, for me on LinkedIn [00:57:00] mm-hmm , that’s where I get most of my, um, you know, my best feedback is actually on linked. Got it. So I’m working on that Southern Maryland is having a STEM festival. Okay. I guess Greg, you’ll just have to find a way to invite me to that. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. awesome. A stem festival in Southern Maryland.

Yep. Okay. And then, um, let’s see, you’ve got Instagram. I have Instagram too. Captain Barbara Bell. And then your website, um, captain Barbara bell.com and then buy her book. You can get that on the website, right? Flight lessons navigating through life’s turbulence and learning to fly high fly high.

Absolutely. So my bottom line of my book, as I said before, is if, uh, if you don’t fit in, choose to stand out and it’s a choice. There you go. There’s her. There we go. okay. thank you for being an awesome guest, Barb. I, I enjoyed our conversation tonight. Oh, I [00:58:00] did. I did too. Emily. It’s it’s delightful. You know, I think back a number of years ago, we were talking exactly about how do you create this life that you love?

And you had said when you push your book, you can be on my podcast. So here I am. Here you are. This is great. Thank you so very much. And thank you for everyone. Uh, you know, who listened online, uh, lovely comments and, uh, you know, thanks for being my friends. Yes. Thank you. All right. I’ll put you in the, uh, green room in the, uh, waiting room there for a little bit, and then we’ll end the show.

Okay. Okay. Thank you to everybody who watched. I really appreciate you. Um, there’s not a show next week. Uh, the next one’s coming up, I think it’s the 28th, the following Wednesday after next. And, uh, the last show is gonna be on November 2nd. So hope you join me for that. I think I’ll be the only, uh, guest there.

Just kind of talking about what I’ve learned and doing over 200 podcast interviews and, um, [00:59:00] just talking about life, answering any questions that people might have. And, you know, I don’t know if it’s gonna be a, a break forever, if it’s just gonna be a break for the winter time, we’ll just see, I’ll just see how, if I miss it or how I’m feeling or what else I’m moving into my life, um, after letting this go, but I’ve really enjoyed doing the show and I appreciate everyone who watched tonight and everybody who listens to this show at when I publish it as a podcast.

Thank you very much and have a wonderful evening. Onward live is sponsored by Emily Harmon, coaching and consulting. Visit my website, Emily harmon.com to learn more about me and my coaching programs. I’d love to help you create a life you love living. Remember every adversity is our own personal university.

Sometimes the lessons are difficult and we must learn from our experiences. [01:00:00] Vulnerability is your superpower. You are lovable and worthy, and we discuss these topics and more because professional is personal. Thank you for joining us and engaging with me and.